we have time for two quick e-mails. wouldn't you know it on our second anniversary. >> happy anniversary, willie. the lord woke me up to see that photo of luke. >> the lord wanted us all to see that photo of luke. i don't know what website we yanked that off. there's luke russert. >> here in london, it's 10:30 a.m. when you come on. >> you know what, you have to

wake up somehow. it might as well be with wnba. thank you for watching the last two years and the staff. it's been a good run. let's try one more. "morning joe" starts right now. ♪ >> the real choice is this, a bill that can get us past this moment of crisis, cuts washington spending and actually gets through congress or one that can't. republicans have offered the only proposal that attempts to get at the root of the problem, which actually has a chance of getting to the president's desk. it's why we continue to press for the legislation speaker boehner has proposed. >> as far as i can tell, it's become a republican party's multiple personalities. it's wrapped up in a bow and delivered to their door.

the demands aren't enough. >> good morning. it's wednesday, july 27th. it's great to have you with us. we are, of course, here in washington, d.c. we are in washington, d.c., for the reason that a lot of you are gathering in d.c., to celebrate the second anniversary of "way too early." anyway, we'll talk to willie in a minute. for now, let's talk to pat buchanan, sam stein and former chairman of the republican national committee, michael steele. things are moving so quickly here. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> we are on the hill all day yesterday. we talked to quite a few leaders on the hill and we are surprised at what we heard and how

irrelevant the white house has become. the general feeling is among democrats the president is capitulated among republicans, he's afraid to step out. basically, the feeling on the hill is, sam stein, the president is going to sign whatever he gets. >> yeah. >> is that what you are hearing on the hill? >> the real question is whether he will follow through on the threats to not sign a short term plan. people find it hard pressed to think he would let the country default over that. there's a gamble that will be taken. >> the president doesn't gamble, though, does he? >> no. not a gambler. the thinking is that whatever the last bill is out there that hasn't been shot down is the one that gets signed into law. you can see it with what harry reid is doing, so the boehner bill can go first and be shot down. his bill is the last one. >> pat, one of the things i find

fascinating about reading biographies is seeing how their character plays out, usually from the -- the past always seems prolonged. last night, i was talking to a democratic member and said i'm shocked that the president isn't leaning forward more. he's not making himself more of a presence in this. the member laughed and said he's playing true to form. he did it with the stimulus plan. he threw it to us and said you figure it out and i'll sign whatever you give me. he did it with health care. you figure it out. i'll sign whatever you send me. it's the same thing here. i find it shocking how much he defers to the legislative branch. he's doing it again. >> he's leading from behind. that's right, this game is up

there in harry reid's corner and boehners. boehner's got a problem. the cuts and the congressional office says he doesn't got it, it's $850 million only. these aren't radicals telling the tea party and republicans vote down the boehner plan as is. >> we were just showing the wall street journal plan, boehner plan faces rebellion, it cuts $850 billion. >> they have to get something together today and move it closer to the tea party, get the party united and roll it to harry reid. >> they called the package back after the ceo. he's getting screwed here, the cbo makes two comparisons in the study. if you look at them, it's $1.1

trillion. if you look at the march, 2011, it's $850 billion. the white house came out and said boehner's plan is $1.1 trillion in savings. they want harry reid's plan to have the same savings. i agree with you 100%, there's no -- >> let me say this, joe. in reality, i admire the tea party. they don't want a phony deal. they are serious about cuts and the boehner thing doesn't make the real cuts. i think boehner has to move to them in serious cuts and get it done with the united caucus behind them. republicans have their plan and move it to harry reid, then you have a vehicle to work with back and forth. >> by the way, harry reed, mitch mcconnell and john boehner are trying to work together to divert a catastrophe. michael steele, you can admire what the tea party members are

doing in the house of representatives. they are small government conservatives. i'm excited about that. but we are a week away from a catastrophic debate. anybody that doesn't believe a default will cause an economic crash and there are a few people out there. not only are they unfit to serve in congress, but they are unfit to handle lawn equipment. this is a -- >> that's the point joe. they have the lawn equipment and they are cutting the grass real short right now and they need to. i get the whole washington game here. people want to get up to the crisis. we have to capitulate to go back to status quo. do business in town like they have done it. you are going to put it off into the future. we are not going to make real cuts today. we have a body of individuals saying this is the bright line.

judge us how we approach the line and what we do facing the situation. you have to admire them for that. >> certainly, we admire them for that. what happens a week from now if we haven't passed the debt ceiling? >> they are going to get it done. >> how are they going to get it done? i was on the hill yesterday talking to the leaders in congress. they don't know how to get it done. the president of the united states doesn't know how to get it done. if the tea party members know how to get it done, i suggest they figure out how to get the 218 votes in the house and 60 votes in the senate to get it passed. somebody has to step forward, michael. >> the thing is, they have stepped forward. >> that's great. >> look -- >> 218 votes? does it have 218 votes? if it doesn't, i could come up with a plan to cut $20 trillion. no, hold on a second. we have a weak -- we are in

edmond burke territory here. there's joe scarborough and tom coburn conservatism. you have a democratic president and democratic senate and a divided house caucus. the question is, how do we get over the finish line? we have 9.2% unemployment. the economy is getting ravaged. this is not what a patient on life support needs. >> no, no, no. look, i'm agreeing with you whole heartedly. the play here, this is where boehner is at this point. he's going to go back and find $150 billion. he's going to put it on the table. you are going to have somebody in the tea party not support this no matter what. >> right. right. >> his goal is, and i said this earlier, get to the point where he can grab his caucus, 100 plus or so, non-tea party conservatives, with nancy

pelosi's crew on the left and pass the bill. he'll get to 217. >> he has to say, you are right, it's short $250 billion. a lot of it was up front. we're going to give you this, this and this today. now, i'm going to need 217 votes from you guys and let me tell you, if i don't get them, i'm going to send something over there, if i have to talk to steny hoyer. do you want to deal with him or me? if you don't stand-up to it, fine but i'm not shutting this government down. >> the freshman who have dominated this debate in a way that should make any washington insider envious, they have done an extraordinary job. they have. i'm not completely trashing them here. buchanan is pumping his fist. i understand that. as more than one person said

over the past couple weeks, two steps to the process. one is having the guts to stand-up. i say this as a lawyer who sat through a lot of mediations and a lot of negotiations. you have to stare down your opponent. when the opponent breaks, as he has, you have to convert that into a win. >> yeah. >> you can have an advantage on a battlefield. if you can't convert it to a victory -- the question is -- the thing is, if they don't take boehner's bill, then reid's bill comes up. so what happened? >> i think, first of all, what pat was talking about occurred yesterday in the conference meeting where eric cantor said you have two options, take this bill or vote on harry reid's bill. they played a video segment from "the town."

they are trying to motivate the caucus. >> they have to cut a deal. it's at the end. >> my point is this -- >> what part of "the town" did they play? >> it's a great movie. love the movie. i think it's where ben affleck punched a guy's face and said get in the car. drive the car. >> in the republican caucus they are playing this. in the democratic caucus, what would david wu do? >> we speak in exponential terms, what's the number? the point is people's lives are at stake if we default. we are talking social security checks. this is a valid point. we don't actually talk about the

people affected by the debate and the services cut off. the salaries, the people who work on the payroll without money. >> that's been absent. also, if you want to know what's going to affect americans the most is the fact that if it's downgraded, if treasuries collapse, interest rates go up and you want to impact americans in a way that will be much worse than social security stopping and medicare stopping. my mom is on medicare and depends on it. you raise interest rates and car loans, home loans, variable loans, student loans, everything goes up. you talk about a tax, if interest rates go up, we are looking at 1979. >> sure. you have $14 trillion debt. that means 140 -- >> 42% -- 42% of the budget is

servicing the national debt. >> this is why what boehner needs to do is get something acceptable because they are not radical. secondly, he needs them to sign on to this thing and get it across over to the senate. >> he's opposed to the thing. >> i know they are opposed now, but boehner has to go back to them. >> they are saying sell the gold. >> not to be responsible or perceived for default. >> the problem for boehner is you can add on from $850 billion you can make it $1.1 trillion. it's almost impossible to add on to the cuts because it's not how it works. he has $1 billion cuts in 2012 then some in 2013. you can't find the cuts.

>> willie geist, a lot of people look at this crisis and ask, how much worse would it have been if two years ago "way too early" did not come on air. i tell them, thank god, we don't have to answer that question. you are the fdr of our day. >> i'm proud of that. the last 15 minutes of this fine program, aren't we having a moot conversation if the current boehner bill is dead on arrival, isn't it going to be more dead on arrival in the senate and if it got that far, the president said he would veto it. i don't see where the deal is in there. >> harry reid and mitch mcconnell and john boehner have one goal. that is to pass a debt ceiling bill.

i have a feeling if all three of them thought they could pass a clean debt ceiling bill with no cuts they would do it in a second. there's a lot of talk about no grown ups in the room. i disagree with those gentlemen on many issues but they understand right now with the president checked out of this process, they are the only game in town and they feel the weight on their shoulders. >> the tea party better not -- >> mitch mcconnell, yesterday, called in a lot of republicans, conservative republicans, moderate republicans and there are some mad rat republicans left in the senate. he was talking to them saying guys -- >> if they don't give boehner something of what they want, they could wind up with nothing. >> we could talk about this later, but what if boehner fails? what does it say about his speakership and does he hold on?

>> i don't think it's possible. you say west is with boehner. >> he's with boehner. >> there are 14 or 15 firm no's among republicans. >> there are going to be no's. >> he needs something. >> i voted against the debt ceiling back in the '90s. i did it for ideological reasons. i didn't want to do that. he could lose 15 or 30. >> if he has 23 defections, that's the limit. he needs some democratic votes. you'll have steny hoyer on, but four or five democrats tops. >> i do not believe the democrats will sit back and watch. >> we'll see. >> i don't see it happening. i think a lot of democrats are going to be on board at the last second. >> i don't know if they are going to be on board tomorrow. i think boehner has to get it

out of his caucus. steny might be able to hold his guys and say we are going to get something. why help them get reid's bill. if the republicans can't do it, let them fall on their face. >> republicans have to figure it out today don't they? >> yep. >> again, $4 trillion in cuts. i don't want new tax increases. i would also like every day to be christmas eve. i would like the red sox to win 162 games. sometimes you don't get what you want. >> true. >> all right. we shall continue. coming up, we are going to talk to steny hoyer and ask how many votes are out there. bob woodward is going to be here and peter king talking ability the upcoming nfl season. politico's top stories of the morning coming up next. first, bill karins with the weather.

hot, sweltering, this side of hell? what are we looking at in the northeast? >> we are running out of adjectives to describe the summer. we got a break from the thunderstorms new york city northward to new england. today, another near 90 degree day. we haven't had a day below average for a month. we are going to get hotter. d.c., up here 100 by friday. saturday is hot and humid. this unbelievable summer continues. dallas, 103 today. that will be 26 days in a row over 100. incredible stuff. you are watching "morning joe" brewed by the hot sun and starbucks. [ diane lane ] is your anti-wrinkle cream gone...

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there was one line in john boehner's speech that jumped out at me. >> the president is asking for the largest debt increase in history on the heels of the largest spending binge. >> came on the heels of the most absurd unfunded wars in iraq and afghanistan and unfunded trillion dollar medicare and bills and tax cuts for the wealt wealthy. i, myself, voted for all of this. back to my original point. >> welcome back to "morning joe". the medicare plan was a $7 trillion plan. most republicans have been watching. let's take a look now at the morning papers. the san francisco chronicle and

a virtual fallout if congress fails to raise the contract. they took out $5.4 billion in loans, covering the bills in case money stops flowing in from washington. new york times under pressure from democratic colleagues, seven term representative, david wu said he would resign from congress following accusations of inappropriate sexual encounters last year. she was much, much younger. before the allegations, he was politically vulnerable. two others were going to challenge him. they have been talking about this going back to college, possible rape charges from his time in stanford. drivers in l.a. may regret paying ticket violations from

traffic cameras. they admitted paying the fines is voluntary because of the way the law is written. the city is now deciding whether to end the program entirely. let's go to willie geist from politico. it's why i never pay my traffic tickets. >> i view all traffic fines as voluntary. doesn't always work out. joining us now, chief white house correspondent at politico mr. mike allen. hi, mike. >> hello, willie. >> cross roads gps out with an ad going after president obama. let's look at it. >> america's economy is hanging by a thread. under the weight of high unemployment. soaring gas prices, medicare nearly bankrupt. a failing stimulus and $14 trillion debt, much of it own i

by china. we are near the breaking point. maybe we won't be crushed when the economy snaps, but someone will. it's time to take away president obama's blank check. >> it's very ominent. >> the little girl, freckles, blue eyes. it's the lbj, 1964, we have the little girl with the encroaching camera, black and white back then, in color now. same message, nuclear war. $3.5 million to make. barack has this ad on cable and a map of the 2012 election up in virginia, north carolina, iowa, nevada, colorado, new mexico. all very politically sensitive states where they are going to

make it clear that jobs, debt, are going to be the message that really take to president obama. >> i take it this is the beginning of a long campaign for cross roads against the president? >> they may raise a more than normally political party. this is the democrats are using them as a foil to raise money for themselves. it's a money arms race there. >> i have to ask you about mitt romney. he's no ohio now. he was in virginia beach yesterday, kind of courting someone who could be a potential vice president choice. >> yeah. we are going to see today mitt romney and how much jobs, jobs, jobs, economy, economy, economy is going to be his message. before he goes into any state, he puts out a message hitting president obama and he tours a

job sight. today he's touring a manufacturing facility underscoring the message and sending a message to his supporters to stick on this message. >> in virginia beach, he was talking about governor bob mcdonnell saying he's been an incredible governor and would be on any candidate's short list for vice president. it's a guy you talked a lot about, governor mcdonnell. >> some would say a presidential candidate. they got elected in 2009. >> mcdonnell and chris christie, people talk about them all the time. >> the only argument, he's a terrific governor, you can carry virginia by yourself. if christie could get you the state of new jersey -- >> barack obama won virginia

last time. >> he ain't gonna win it this time. >> virginia residents. it's true. >> i think pat is right. i think the obama people feel more confident about north carolina than virginia in part because their convention is there. >> no doubt about it. willie, that ad, going back to the ad, it's going to be -- the ride is going to be more rough in 2012 than in 2008. republicans that i talked to on the hill are echoing what peggy noonan wrote, he made things worse. >> they were bad. the debt was bad when barack obama became president. he made things worse. the economy was bad but he made things worse. the war was bad.

he made things worse. it's a strong message. >> they said unemployment would be below 8%. it's above 9%. the ads are going to hit home for a lot of people. >> he has to overcome it with inspiration and popularity. >> mike allen. thanks so much. coming up, one of the single worst calls in the history of organized sports. >> it was horrible! oh my lord! he's down. and i'm a braves fan. >> the 19th inning where the umpire simply wanted to get to the hotel and go to bed. >> wait until you see this one. >> holy cow. keep it on "morning joe." [ male announcer ] this...is the network -- a network of possibilities.

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welcome back to "morning joe." we are looking at the white house right now. obviously the staff is focused on one thing and one thing alone. as much as you can do that in the white house, that's figuring

out a way to stop the united states government from defaulting. the same discussion is had in mitch mcconnell's office. john boehner is the center of action as he's facing a rebellion in his own party. this is pretty darn surprising. one week out, the cbo score put john boehner back on the defensive. sam stein, he's moving quickly to shore up support. >> the cb score did him no favors. raise the debt ceiling and we want immediate cuts. he's got to pull back the plan, refigure it. resell it to the caucus. remember, republicans are devoted to not voting from any

raise. >> this is like the french revolution, i think. after barack obama and harry reid, a lot of folks are after boehner and people they think are ka capitulators. if they don't give boehner a vehicle to send to the senate to say we raised the debt ceiling, no taxes, real cuts, maybe not as many as you want but here you go. we are doing the right thing, the responsible thing. >> we get a workable bill. >> let's turn to other news. good news as far as health goes. miracles still do happen. remember the guy that we heard only had three months to live in libya? well, he's made quite a comeback. for the first time in a couple years, he appeared in public.

footage from libyan state tv shows him attending a rally in support of moammar gadhafi. he looked frail, he was sitting in a wheelchair. his appearance may not be -- he was released from prison in 2009. supposedly for medical reasons. willie geist, this is one more reminder, i still don't think we have gotten to the bottom of this deal that great britain and scotland signed off on. i think the united states in a wink, signed off as well. it's a disgrace. >> it hasn't smelled right since then. he's still up and around.

let's turn to sports now. i know you watched the end of the game. you were up late. >> i did. >> a wild night in atlanta. the ninth inning. a guy on third. great call from the dugout as the braves pitch out and catch mike mchenry at third. they sniff out the squeeze. extra innings. bases loaded in the 12th. in the 16th now. pittsburgh rips it down the line. look at the rookie. a nice leaping catch there. a couple pirates screaming for an end. way past their bedtime. a base hit wins it for atlanta. nice play. we are tied at three. 19th inning, folks getting a little strange. they are all the beer cups he could find at turner field. here is the play at the plate. julio tries to score.

it appears he's out by five feet. he never touched the plate. >> oh, my god! >> the umpire calls him safe. safe. >> he wants to go home. >> he wanted to get back to the hotel, no question about it. the pirates manager can not believe his eyes. the braves win on that play. braves win, 4-3. the game lasted six hours, 35 minutes. ended just before 2:00 in the morning east coast time. that's the longest game either of the two franchises ever played. >> willie, let me ask you this. they have instant replay. they will look at it to see if a home run. why can't they have a replay for a bang-bang play. that wasn't a bang-bang play. it was a bang play. >> they should do it, if you don't want to use it for every

play, do it for plays that decide the game. certainly, that could be the final straw in getting instant replay. >> willie, i shaved off my moustache yesterday as well in solidarity with the mariners. did seattle finally win? i'm pulling for them. >> let's take a look. mariners with a 16-game losing streak. not a good way to break a streak when you see that guy on the mound. cc sabathia was dealing last night. swinging strikeout. ichiro can't touch him. the mariners are one of the worst offensive teams ever. cc was perfect for six innings. a home run. 28 home runs already. top of the seventh inning, sabathia still has a perfect game.

two short rain delays. perfect game until this swing. breaks it up. seattle's only hit of the night. sabathia struck out 14 yankee's wins. the losing streak at 17 games for the mariners. the sox are still two games up from the yankees. finally, you hate the criticize a player who gives back to fans but you have to question his judgment. arizona two runners on and one out. that's the important part here. one out. hudson makes a routine catch and throws the ball into the fans. look at them screaming trying to get the ball back. too late. too late. the run comes in to score. oh, my goodness. padres lose the game, 6-1. joe, peter king will be on

this show today. tomorrow, college football game day. erin andrews will be here on set with us. >> this is big. >> huge. >> willie, who is going to be number one? are we looking at oklahoma? alabama? >> could be a tie situation. i have to say. we should point out vanderbilt got a great recruiting class. >> they did have a great recruiting class. >> they did. >> my understanding is the average s.a.t. just above 1300. unprecedented. for a co--ed football team.

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this is what happened during the prime time speech last

night. >> for the last decade, we spend more money than we take in. 2000, the government had a surplus. instead of using it to pay off the debt, the money was spent on trillions of dollars in tax cuts. >> this has been a message from the president of the united states. >> ha is going on? >> i missed that. i don't know what i was doing. let's go to mika's must read op-ed. she wired these end from copry. we are thankful for that. let's start with "the new york times." not okay at the okay corral. you could argue that obama created his own nightmare by failing to read the class rage of the public and aggressively cut government fat. it allowed the tea party to rice. whatever the criticisms of obama, it's republican who is

are overtly playing politics even though obama compromises easily, the republicans are showing no willingness to compromise at all. there's one thing to predict ability the summer showdown. sam stein. >> government loses. sitting republicans and democrats lose in the mess. >> oh, yeah. this is an institutional failure. it breathes for institutions that everything confronts except for the military. washington basically looks speckles. >> look at what the wall street journal is writing. they are getting tough on some of the tea party members. their editorial, the paper's editorial says the gops reality test. the speaker has made mistakes in his debt negotiations.

thanks to the president's overreaching on taxes, mr. boehner has the taxes in sight. if conservatives defeat the boehner plan, they under mine their house majority and make the entitlements that much harder to reform. that's the argument i made in politi politico. if they fail to take the victory, they will reelect barack obama. >> republicans in the tea party who looked at it thinking we are going buy a house and your deal and my deal. they won the battle. they have won the battle. there's no taxes in there. now that you have won the battle, he says i'm going to take 30%. nothing less. nothing less. he says i'm giving you 25. he says okay, i'll give you 25. the tea party guys have to push

boehner to get as much as they can in a deal. they have to let him now play the hand with harry reid and the senate because he is our guy. the tea party is not going to get everything they wanted. there's a complete victory when talking about obama. >> do you agree, michael, if the republicans allow the default to happen and don't support the boehner plan, they help reelect barack obama? >> exactly. he's positioned the party to go to the table and say this is the deal. 25%. i really think, right now, the leadership is saying to them, we have it. this is, whether you like it or not, going to be a two-step process, no matter how you package it, this is not all going to get resolved by the second of august. i's not going to get resolved by november of next year. it's a process. republicans have the advantage. push it back to the president's

desk and say sign. >> we started with i want a blank debt ceiling deal. it is a victory. >> it is a victory. willie geist, harry reid and people in the democratic caucus quietly saying, privately saying, they are not spending this. they are saying it privately, the president has capitulated. we have to pick up the pieces now. >> i was curious to ask you, you don't have to give up names but who you were talking to on the hill. privately, people are disappointed in the way the president led through the entire process. >> yeah. the democrats are in and the republicans right now, republicans in the senate are now trying what's coming up nex

willie? >> the clip . you'll hear the clip andou decide if it makes sense in the debate. somewhere in america, a city comes to life. moves effortlessly, breathes easily. it flows with clean water. it makes its skyline greener and its population healthier. people want to live and work in. somewhere in america, we've already answered some of the nation's toughest questions. and the overixty thousand people of siemens are ready to do it again. siemens. answers. fiber one. uh, forgot jack's cereal. [ jack ] what's for breakfast?

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it's time for a little news you can't use. we were talking at the top of the show about a clip from "the town." a ben affleck movie from a year or so ago. the gop used it to try to rally the troops. kevin mccarthy started his talk to the group by showing a clip from "the town." see if this would motivate you to get a deal on the debt. watch. >> i need your help. i can't tell you what it is. you can never ask me about it later. i'm going to hurt some people. >> okay. it's a great scene. you have to love it. you wonder what it means in the context of the debate. after the clip, florida congressman stood up and said quote, i'm ready to drive the

car. what were they doing? they were going to beat the living daylights out of some guy. i have to say -- all i'm going to say, i'm going to stay out of this. i'm so confused my teeth hurt. i will say ben affleck turned in a remarkable performance there. he's had a spotty career of acting. he's turned into a great actor. remarkable job. my wife wanted to see this movie because mr. madman was in it. i said okay. we'll look at it. half way through, we were staring at the performance, stunned. hopefully, i am distracted from the fact that my party chose this party to try to avert a government disaster. >> they were two lethal bank

robbers going to beat the crap out of somebody. still ahead, bob woodward is going to join you in washington. and peter king will be here talking nfl. we'll be right back. ♪ let me entertain you

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♪ this was negotiated in a

bipartisan manner between both houses of the congress. i do think we are going to have some work to do to get it passed, but i think we can do it. i ask both democrats and republicans to look at a common sense plan. it will avoid default and put america's fiscal house back in order. >> if you think this situation we have seen in the last several weeks has been chaotic in whether or not the united states will fail to live up to its obligation, imagine what it will be like in six, eight or ten months if we go through it again. the president thinks it's bad for the economy. it's not about politics. it's bad for the economy. it's a balanced support. democrats, independents and republicans agree with the approach he put forward. >> welcome back to "morning joe." we are here in washington with

pat buchanan and michael steele and joining us now, bob woodward. willie geist is in new york. >> we are in washington like everybody is in washington, for one reason. >> yeah. what's that? >> the celebrate the anniversary of "way too early." >> it's two years old? how sweet. >> what would have happened if we wouldn't have had "way too early." >> thanks. john boehner moved the vote to thursday because he didn't want to compete with this. >> did not want to step on the two year anniversary. the london olympics will begin a year from today on the third anniversary of "way too early". let's look at the front page of

the wall street journal. john boehner, who we just heard talking is now facing a rebellion in his own party because the cbo came back saying his plan didn't cut over $1 trillion. >> there's a lot of rebellion going on. earlier, you were talking about criticism of president obama and i think there's -- the question is, what's going on here overall. >> right. >> there's strong evidence that president obama has got what i guess could be called commander in chiefitis. it's a syndrome. >> is it a good thing? >> you have to understand, pat knows this well. what is a like in the white house for a president? he is the man. he sits at the table on national security issues at the head. as george bush said the president is the decider. everyone else can weigh in, but

it's obama who makes all the decisions. he's got this idea on the default issue, deficit issue that somehow he's got more power than he actually has. what he's done is he comes out and gives speeches, press conferences too much. he's overexposed all of his feelings. take what happened last friday when he gave that press conference. i think he made three or four mistakes. first of all, he said this is not the usual food fight between republicans and democrats. well that's exactly what it is. it is a food fight and it's taxes versus spending and so forth. second, he said, very dramatically, i'm not pointing fingers. i'm not into the blame game, then he went to blame the republicans on and on.

again, he did this on monday night. >> the thing about monday night, bob, and i want you to continue, but before the speech, people were asking why is he doing this? what's the purpose? there has to be a purpose. after his speech and john boehner's speech, everybody was asking the same question. they gave two standard political speeches in prime time that only made americans more nervous. >> and confused. is a compromise possible? you read the papers and some people say no compromise is possible. others say it's inevitable. his third mistake, i'm sorry to be so long on this, he says i will -- his language last friday, bottom line i won't sign a short term deficit deal. >> things have changed, haven't they? >> it's exactly what he's going to get. then he asked, where's the

leadership here? the point is, this is a presidential leadership question. he's got to be the one who steps up and finds a way to manage this. he's put himself in jeopardy not just politically or with his own party. for the public, there's a kind of huh, what's going on here, when the president gets up and says hey look, this is not the normal food fight when they know it is. >> mika, we have seen this time and again with this president. i'm not saying it's wrong, i'm saying it's fascinating. i have never seen a president that for as much as the president explained yesterday on the hill, one of the democratic members when i said i'm shocked the president is not taking larger role. he has no play on the hill right now. it's mcconnell, reid and boehner.

this democrat said he did it with the stimulus plan. he gave it to us. he had no plan of his own. he did it with health care reform. he had no plan of his own. he's now done it -- >> hold on. it's easy to criticize. >> hold on a second. >> i have a question. i think there's a good argument that he hasn't put a plan on the table and there's a pattern that is developing here. you have a concept about obama being a divided man. first, let's turn the tables and you tell us, you, you and you, pat, tell us what the president should do to get the republicans to live up to their mutual obligation to agree to a compromise so we can move forward and have an agreement and not have one side get completely rolled. tell us what he's not doing at this point. >> reality. taxes out of the tea party house.

not going to get them. it's irrelevant. what did he say, get down here saturday morning. boehner said look, i'm going back to the hill to talk to reid and mcconnell. we are going to settle this. this fellow has had four weeks. >> no compromise from pat. >> wait a second. mika, i have been criticizing republican freshmen this morning -- >> yeah. >> talking about edmond burke and the conservatism i support. there's another kind. it's edmond burke where you look at the world and it's reality. the republican freshmen are not doing it. let me finish. the president hasn't been doing it for nine months. this train has been coming for nine months. we have been warning the president on this show for nine

months that this would happen. people that followed the house warned this would happen. this is no surprise, yet the president is saying even five days ago, i'm going to get taxes out of the republican house. it's not a reality, either. >> to your point, mika, i agree with you that it's easy to take a no position. it's hard to get to yes sometimes. in this situation when you know the train is coming off the rails and the president starts the conversation in january, i want a clean debt deal when his political calculations should have told him, that's not going to be the deciding point in this debate, given what happened in november. you have to be able to readjust and come to the table with a leadership plan. >> i understand, mika, you have a good argument. >> no, i'm not. >> no, i know you are doing it

for argument. >> i'm not, actually. i believe the wealthiest americans should -- i believe the loopholes should be closed and republicans ought to compromise. >> no taxes. he said that. >> at this point, the republicans need to step forward. >> on mika's point, i think you need to give president obama credit on this. it's a good faith effort of the speaker to have the secret negotiations for the grand plan, do something serious. he got boehner to agree to $800 billion in revenue increases. that was a big deal. >> then had $40 billion more. >> he pushed it too far. overplayed it and that's what you do. >> mika, you have a point. when did obama succeed? he walked in and said look, the

republicans aren't going to get rid of the bush tax increases. okay, you got them. let's go do don't ask, don't tell. obama won by saying look, they ain't going to get that. deal with reality and get what we can get. >> if you appreciated that moment -- why didn't he come to this debate with that tone? >> he's trying to do something big in economic terms that was the right course for him politically, it's the right course. get it out so it's not an issue in the election. it's going to be front, center and all of the sidelines. the republicans are not gouk to give him a debt extension that goes into 2013. >> there's a problem here. i don't think it has to do with ideology because the one thing

i'm learning, the longer barack obama is in office, i know republican who is are going to -- he's just not driven by ideology. he's driven by splitting the differences. he's not a professor, he's a law review editor who wants to be a philosopher instead of a president. mika, were you on the hill yesterday? >> everybody that we said hey, how's it going. you saw old friends, what did they say? >> not good. >> every time -- >> this is serious. mitch mcconnell understands it. there's a bigger problem here that has nothing to do with ideology. it has to do with management of washington. the old guard wins because as we

were sit tlg talking to mitch mcconnell, we were tough on mitch but we went in to talk to him and guess what? he talked to us. >> yes. >> very gracious. i savaged trent at times. there was an open door. there was talking. it's how washington works. you work through things with people. as i sat there talking to mitch mcconnell, it struck me that barack obama never had a one-on-one with a top republican for his first two years. there's a disconnect and distrust. >> this is commander in chiefitis. he controls so much, he stepped into this issue and as pat points out, the house republicans have the hammer here. he knew that. that was reality. he did this negotiation with boehner. one of the things you learn in negotiation is don't get the

other guy to give something that he can't deliver. >> right. >> that is what happened with boehner. we went back and they told him. they said hey, $800 billion in revenue, no way. >> bill clinton loved newt gingrich. he loved freshmen like myself. he didn't understand us. we were aliens to bill clinton. a guy, a product of the '60s versus the young, hot head people inspired by reagan. yet every day he reached out. every day to gingrich and every day to freshmen. i spent more time in bill clinton's white house than george bush's white house. this president just hasn't done that. for whatever reason. i think you are right, bob, so many president's get in that don't know washington.

>> how does he not understand when he had the republicans in the house who were a minority, sitting there holding the line to the death on the bush taxes. now he's got a new 63 new guys -- >> every president does not understand when they come in. it happens time and again. >> again, you have to be neutral here. he's trying to do the right thing for the economy in the country. i think it's a tone management problem. >> why ask for $400 billion? >> like john boehner couldn't deliver certain things, barack obama couldn't deliver certain things in the senate. there's no way the senate would have gone for that back in the day. the president had the same problem johnbone asked.

>> if he needs them to go along with it -- >> get them in there. >> things are changing rapidly. a deal that couldn't have passed last week could pass this week. i want to underline, you are right. the president tried for a grand bargain that i would have supported. my gosh. >> you could have sold that. >> he's going to get a short term extension. they are talking 30 days or 60 days or a couple months. this is going to be the issue that won't go away for his re-election year asp. why is he hanging his head on this and saying you know what? i have not just an economic problem, but a political problem. >> when do we get to talk about

the senator's chair? amazing. how about the incredible hawk. >> we'll talk about his manly stuff in a minute. >> house manorty is coming up. also from football night in america, peter king will be with us. you are watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks.

we are going to have to get back together and get a solution here. we cannot get a perfect solution, from my point of view in controlling only the house of representatives. i'm prepared to accept something less than perfect. perfect is not achievable. >> democratic congressman from maryland representative steny

hower. >> leaders in the house and senate are united in the belief they have to pass a debt ceiling. it's a question of corralling members. is there a plan on the floor? that's the problem. you understand default is not an option. do we get to a point where you, nancy pelosi understands it where five, six, republicans get it a in a room and work it out? >> we have been trying to do that. john boehner has been trying to do that. you mentioned earlier, i was listening to the program about the young hot head republican

reag reaganites and you were one of them. bill clinton talked about the perfectionist caucus. i don't know if you remember that speech? >> i remember. he was talking about us. >> he was talking about the republican who is wanted perfect. mitch mcconnell said perfect is not obtainable. we have different points of view. different people came to washington with different premises. we have been trying to work out an agreement for four or five months to solve a problem that needs a solution. we cannot default and put the united states of america in a position where america can't pay their bills. we needed a bargain. i would have supported one. i would have. nancy pelosi would have. eric cantor said such a deal was not possible because it included revenue. i think it's unfortunate. we are now in a spot where,

frankly, john boehner is close to a deal with president obama that i think we could have suppo supported. it would have been tough on our side and the republican side. we do tough things and come to an agreement. compromise in a democracy. unfortunately, mr. boehner brought that back and apparently his people would not buy it, would not support it. he walked out of the deal. the fact is, we are now in a place where he's having a problem getting a majority for the deal he's put together himself, unilaterally. yesterday, he was struggling to get the votes. here is the good news. harry reid put on the floor or is about to put on the floor of the united states senate exactly what john boehner said he wanted. that is $2.7 trillion, $2.4

trillion to $2.7 trillion in cuts to mirror a similar increase in the debt limit so america could pay its bills and stabilize the financial prospects of american families. unfortunately, for whatever reasons, that bill that reflects what john boehner asked for and what mitch mcconnell is prepared to support is not yet passed the senate. the house bill, which goes in stages, which continues to rule the financial markets and continues to create uncertainty in the markets doesn't have the support of republicans and certainly doesn't have the support of democrats. i hope in the next few hours, frankly, we could come to an agreement of a plan that mirrors what john boehner said he wanted and the democrats are able to support. >> i hope so, too.

you mentioned and joe, i want to ask you, they have been working on it for four or five months. everybody at the table, it comes back to the president. he's the president of the united states. at what point do you look at the other side, the republicans saying they don't want it to work out. they just don't want it to work out for political reasons? when you work for four or five months on something, the economy is -- >> i think steny would agree. things are changing rapidly. i wanted a $4 trillion deal last week. i want a deal this week. with over 9% unemployment. the economy stagnant. signs pointing down for the future. americans thinking the economy is in poor position. the last thing this sick patient can afford is a stroke. that is what this default would be. >> i think we all agree on that, joe.

absolutely. again, i stress, reid put on the table what john boehner said he wanted. no revenues, no new taxes, cuts equal to the debt limit. it's on the table. in addition, a committee to look at a longer term solution. all of us know it needs to be pursued. the crisis will not go away by lifting the debt limit. we need to get our finances in balance. >> bob woodward. >> if in the house the republicans control, they have made it clear they are now not going to go along with a long-term debt ceiling extension. they want to do a short term, i think for lesser reasons, some of them political. it keeps the issue alive next year in the campaign when everyone in the house and president go before the electorate. isn't that the reality?

>> i think you are right. i think it's unfortunate politics are playing a role. we are playing russian roulette with the nation's credit worthiness. they want to shoot every bullet they can at the president. i think it's political in that sense. it is much, much too dangerous to be playing politics with the credit worthiness of the united states where for the first time in history, we wouldn't be able to pay aur bills. john boehner offered a number of proposal. remember when he offered a resolution to keep it open? he lost members. it was on a deal he made. >> pat buchanan. >> hi, pat. >> how you doing, steny? >> good. >> let me ask you think, boehner is working hard. we don't want to play politics with it and he doesn't appear to

have enough votes in his own caucus. has he come to you saying steny, i may not be able to get 217 in my caucus, i can get 205. can you deliver the votes for me to put the bill that i put together across to the senate and what would be your price for it? >> we have had such discussions. i have said publicly that if we could work together, then i would certainly try to help pass a bill as we did with the continued resolution, the bill to get the government running. it's our responsibility. i told john, i said we have to work together on this. again, let me go back to the newt gingrich speech. what we have now is the perfectionist caucus squared, if you will, or tripled where john boehner has a group of people who believe their way is the

correct way and they are not prepared to compromise in any way. i didn't deliver the votes for what they want. john is having trouble delivering votes for the plan he put together. >> exactly. >> what a mess. i wish you the best of luck. >> yeah, lots of luck, steny. >> we need to wish the country the best of luck. this is not about politics. this is about a country that needs to be stabilized. >> we wish you luck. it's the economic version of the movie "armageddon." the asteroid is coming toward earth. you have to blow it up before it destroys the economy. lots of luck for you. >> thank you very much. we are working on it. >> appreciate it. up next -- >> newt gave a stirring speech.

it was newt's last speech, the speaker of the house. >> $2.7 trillion debt extension until the 2012 election is not going to happen because people are shock of all shocks playing politics now. >> yeah. >> remember, nixon at one point said i gave my critics a sword in a very famous statement. in a sense, obama has given and the republicans have taken the sword of the debt default and they are in there, going to hold this version. if you are right, it's the asteroid coming toward us. it's a short term diversion. we tuned in early next year. it's coming right at us. >> we'll continue. up next, a new book about the

haunting legacy of the vietnam war and the lasting affect on all u.s. presidents. we'll be right back. almost tastes like one of jack's cereals. fiber one. uh, forgot jack's cereal. [ jack ] what's for breakfast? um... try the number one! [ jack ] yeah, this is pretty good. [ male announcer ] half a day's worth of fiber. fiber one. excuse me? my grandfather was born in this village. [ automated voice speaks foreign language ] [ male announcer ] in here, everyone speaks the same language. ♪ in here, forklifts drive themselves. no, he doesn't have it. yeah, we'll look on that. [ male announcer ] in here, friends leave you messages written in the air. that's it right there.

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with us now the former chief of nbc news and former moderator of "meet the press" marvin kalb and deborah kalb. it's a great honor to have you here. what a fascinating book. >> thank you. >> it seems if there's a water balloon fight somewhere, people say it's the next vietnam. this war cast a shadow on every president from '75 forward. >> people told me researching the book there are two large themes. one is watergate in a political sense and one is vietnam in a national security sense. what we tried to do in

researching and writing the book is what does one president after another from ford to obama do when the issue comes us about whether to send troops abroad. what does vietnam factor into their minds? how do they think of an exit strategy? every way vietnam sits theren guest but it's there. >> have we paid less attention to it? you go back to lebanon, 1983, ronald reagan put together a document. some people are saying obama is ignoring that in afghanistan. >> no, i think quite the opposite. i think vietnam has haunted obama more than any other

president because obama was 13 years of age when the war ended. he had no reason to be absorbed with vietnam at all. time and time again, when the issue came up of afghanistan, what do you do about it. vietnam is the issue on his mind. one thing that is very important at this point in understanding obama, when he went in july of '08 to afghanistan and iraq, toured the battlefield as he was running for president. he went over there with two senators, hagel and reid. most of the trip was devoted to obama asking two colleagues not about afghanistan, but about vietnam, over and over again. one question after another. basically, how do you avoid the pitfalls of vietnam in

afghanistan. >> he inherited afghanistan and iraq the way nixon inherited vietnam, 535,000 troops in vietnam when he got into the white house. bush i learned the lessons. there was a big push from the neoconservatives to go to baghdad. bush i did that and said this is what everybody signed on for. we are stopping at the iraqi border. he got the lesson right. >> for the record, george w. bush spit out his coffee and wept for it. marvin, go ahead. >> i agree with you, pat. the relevant point is vietnam was in his point. he did not want to go too far or

get trapped in baghdad. this is one of the most fascinating things, you can get in on the act, too. the way one of the presidents after another, vietnam sits there just hanging around and even if you wanted to dump it, you couldn't. >> i asked obama about this a year ago and he maintains he's free of the vietnam. >> i agree with you. he's the one sitting there saying i'm not doing ten years. i'm not doing $1 trillion. it's about vietnam. it's about getting into a steal mate. >> yet, we seem to be in a steal mate. >> most of the presidents, all of them have the speck tor of lynn don johnson hovering over them. they don't want to be in a

situation of having to jet their domestic policy priorities because of an international situation. >> it's fascinating, pat. we'll open it up to everybody. politically, i may have disagreed with lbj, but he knew the house, the senate and domestic policy. somebody as wise as lynn don johnson, if he gets tripped up on vietnam, somebody like president obama who doesn't have that experience. >> you saw him talking about richard russell on the tapes. get involved in this thing. why did obama, with this knowledge and background triple his forces in afghanistan? joe biden and others saying don't do it. >> pat, a very simple reason.

vietnam represented a lost war. obama comes into office with that legacy of republicans harping on any democratic president saying you lose the war, you lose the election. obama doesn't want to lose the election. he wants to go down as a great president. he triples the size in '09. at the end of the year, he faces that kind of decision, do you kick the can for down the road, which is what he has done because he cannot accept even the possibility of another lost war. another lost war means he loses. >> another factor in all of this, particularly with obama, the strength and power of the military. when they make afghanistan

decisions, they are, as i call them, blocks of granite. they sit themselves down and say you have got to do this this way. >> you know, bob and deborah, i'm curious what you think. i have always said the military can push around a president much easier than a republican president because a president like jfk in 1963 called soft on communism because he wasn't pushing forward, if barack obama had done what i think conservatives like pat and myself want him to do, draw down the number of troops, the chorus of cat calls would have been deafening. he would have been blamed for the next decade. >> that's true. i think what my father is getting at, it has to do with the who lost china idea. any democratic president is going to be haunted by that idea

of being soft on communism and whatever it might be. it goes back to the '40s. >> who lost china? bu canaan. >> who lost vietnam? >> congress of the united states. >> you know, congress was once that. congress represents part of the united states. >> right. the united states lost that war, not just peace. >> deborah and i are going to go out and get a cup of coffee while this debate continues. >> every capital was in allied hands. before watergate. >> the important point here, sorry to do this is, sometimes war is a bad idea. sometimes wars don't work if

president's inside realize that. that is the theme of gates leaving the pentagon saying you know what? anybody who recommends to a president to go for a war that is ending. >> marvin and deborah kalb, thank you so much. the book is haunting legacy, vietnam and the american presidency from ford to obama. we'll be right back.

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welcome bok to "morning joe." joining us, senior writer for "sports illustrated" magazine. >> how are you? >> good. a must read for any sports fan

on si.com. let's talk about the lockout. a lot going on in the last four or five months. who made out on this deal? >> i honestly think, by far, the biggest winner is the fans because what happened is this deal will give football fans 33 years of uninterrupted years of football. every other team is talking strikes, cancel the baseball season or the hockey season. from 1988 to 2021, it's going to be uninterrupted football. a lot of wrangling and stuff like that. i think the fans are the winners here, without being corny because they don't lose a single real game. as far as one thing each side got, football players, if you play in a football game in 2011 and when ever you stop playing, you have lifetime health care

with deductibles. formerly, they only had five years of health care post career. for the owners, they get ten years of labor piece. they can go to the networks and say hey, pay us a 70% increase in 2014 when our deal is up. they will make out. >> the players get a cut? >> 85%. >> it was good to see that we are not going to have guaranteed contracts like other leagues. now, if you get hurt, they pay year two of your deal. >> if you get hurt in the middle of say a four-year contract, a career-ending injury in year two and three and four are out of the books. right now, you get $1 million in year three and $500,000 in year four. >> it's a lot of money for them, too. now, we can move on and talk

about football. >> what's that? >> we have all the negotiations behind us. the jets santonio holmes a wide the guys right now, santonio holmes is the guy that the jets really want to keep. i think santonio holmes stays with the jets. >> where are the jets right now? >> we had rex ryan in here a couple of months ago. they do a lot of talking, the jets. is this the year? they've only got one more into the game. >> i think that they have it within their power if they choose to really do some sort of cap cutting. salary cap cutting and going out to sign on the awesome one, the best free agent on the market.

general manager mike tannenbaum had a choice. but it's an enticing thing for them to realize that if they get paired with durell reid and can be the best thing playing in tandem. >> let's talk big picture now, who were the teams to watch coming out of this, the patriots had a big year last year, the falcons had a big year in the nfc, who do you like right now? >> i think the falcons are a fascinating team, the packers, i think, stand above at the start of the season, they had 15 guys on injured reserve last year and still won the super bowl. they get those guys back, aaron rodgers is another year wiser, he's a great nfl quarterback, i think they stand above and beyond, but the atlanta falcons, really a big threat, they signed julio jones, drafted julio jones

and got him. in the affect, i think if the houston texans help themselves with the indianapolis colts they'll be on par. >> nothing like a super bowl prediction in july. >> i'm going to give you a little bit of an upset, maybe,s but i think the detroit lions -- >> in the super bowl? >> might, might. but i want to see what they do in free agency first. >> i'll keep reading you anyway. peter great to talk to you. still ahead, chuck todd with today's headlines out of washington, more "morning joe" when we come back. ÷x

where do we stand right now? >> interestingly enough, 18 years ago, big clinton in the white house was going through the same shenanigans to figure out how to reduce the deficit and in a moment of decembspair privacy we are all -- there's going to be a moment where obama is going to be despairing in

some form and say, you know, we are the eisenhower republicans, we are focused on the bond market, you have to be, we're trying to reduce the deficit and his eyes and jean sperling who's the economist of the white house, we -- it's going to be a disappointing moment. >> when do the republicans figure out that they're eisenhower republicans. >> that's why we love eisenhower. >> thank you, bob, very much. >> that will work out in '64, pat. >> more "morning joe" ahead with sam stein, michael steel and chuck todd. every day, all around the world, energy is being produced to power our lives.

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the real choice is this, a bill that can get us past this moment of crisis, cuts washington's spending, and actually gets through to congress or one that can't. republicans have offered the only proposal that attempts to get at the root of the problem. and which actually has a chance of getting to the president's desk. that's why we'll continue to press for the legislation speaker boehner has proposed. >> as far as i can tell, what

we're doing around washington today is between republican parties and multiple personalities. in short, it's everything republicans have demanded, wrapped up in a bow and delivered to their door. but now republicans are saying their demands aren't enough. >> as you take a live look at new york city, back with us here on set, in washington are pat buchanan, san stein and michael steele along with willie geist up in new york. things are moving so quickly here that we were on the hill all day yesterday, went and talked to quite a few leaders on the hill, very surprised by what we heard and also surprised by how irrelevant the white house has become. the general feeling is among democrats that the president has capitulated among republicans that he's afraid to step out. but basically, the feeling on the hill is, sam stein that the president is going to sign whatever he gets. >> yeah.

>> is that what you're hearing on the hill? >> the real question right now is whether he will followthrough on his threats not to sign a plan that doesn't get us through the 2012 elections. people are hard pressed to believe that he will gamble over that. >> the president doesn't gamble, though. >> the thinking is that whatever the last bill is out there that hasn't been shot down is the one that's going to get signed into law. and you see that with what harry reid is doing, he's holding on the introduction of his bill so that the boehner bill can be presented first. >> i have michigy whole life of politicians, the past always seems to be prologued. last night i was talking tot a democratic member and said, i'm

shocked that the president isn't leaning forward more, that he's not making himself more of a presence in this. and the member laughed and said he's playing true to form. >> uh-huh. >> he did it with the stimulus plan, he threw it to us and said you guys figure it out and i'll sign whatever you give me, he did it in health care reform, he did it to us, said you guys figure it out, i'll sign whatever you send me. he's in effect done the same thing here. i find that shocking how much this president defers to the legislative branch. but it looks like he's doing it again. >> he's leading from behind. that's right, this game sup there in harry reid's corner and it's in boehners, but boehner's got a problem in his own caucus, his 1.1 trillion in cuts, the congressional budget office says you ain't got it, it's $850 million only. and the club for growth, they're

not radicals, they're telling the tea party caucus, vote down the boehner plan as is. >> boehner plan faces rebellion, it supposedly only cuts $850 billion. >> boehner has got to get something together today, get it close to the tea party, get the tea party united, roll it across the harry reid. >> and we'll have the package back, in actuality, he's getting, i hate to say it, a little bit screwed here because the cbo makes two comparisons in its study, the first one is to its january 2011 baselines, if you look at those, it's 1.1 trillion. and if you look at those compared to the march baselines, it's $850 billion. the white house came out and side the boehner plan has 1.1 trillion. they wa

but i agree with you, pat, 100%, i think there's no conservative support for this plan in the end. >> in reality, i admire the tea party, they don't want a phony deal, they're serious about cuts and they're saying the boehner thing doesn't make the serious cuts. they need to get it done with his united caucus behind him and that republicans have their plan and move it across the harry reid and then you got a vehicle that you can work with back and forth. >> and by the way, harry reid, mitch mcconnell and john boehner are trying to work together to avoid a catastrophe. but michael steel, you certainly can admire what the tea party are going in the house of representatives, they're small government conservatives, i respect that fact. but we're weeks away from a catastrophic debate. anybody who does not believe that a default will cause an economic crash, and there are

still a few people out there, not only are they unfit to serve in congress, i think they're infit to handle lawn equipment. this is -- >> that's the point, though, they've got the lawn equipment and they're cutting the grass real short right now, and they need to. you know, i get the whole washington game here and people want to get up to the crisis and now we all have to capitulate to go back to status quo ante. you're not going to make the big decisions, you're going to put it off into the future, we're not going to make real cuts today, you've got a body of individuals, you've got 87 or so members, this is the bright line, what we do in facing this situation, so you've got to another mire them f admire them for that. >> but what happens a week from now if we haven't passed the debt ceiling. >> they're going get it done. >> how are they going to get it done? >> i've got to tell you, i was

on the hill yesterday talking to the leaders of congress, they don't know how to get it done. the president of the united states doesn't know how to get it done. if the tea party members know how to get it done, i suggest that they figure out how to get the 218 votes in the house and the 60 votes in the senate to get it passed closer, and get it done, somebody has to step forward. >> the thing about this, michael is they have stepped forward. >> but this is the same -- >> does it have 218 votes? because if it doesn't have 218 votes, i can come one a plan that cuts $2 trillion. >> we are in edmond burke territory here, there's joe scarborou scarborough, and then there's edmond burke conservativism. you've got a democratic house, you've got a democratic senate and a divide caucus. how do we get over the finish

line in the next week. >> we have got 9.2% inflation. this is not what a patient on life support needs. >> i'm agreeing with you whole hartedly. boehner is going to go back and find his extra $250 billion. his goal right now, and i said this a little bit earlier, his goal is to get to the point where he can grab as many of his caucus, 100-plus or so, possible that together with nancy pelosi's crew on the left and present that bill. he'll get to 217. the goal is to find another 1$10 billi billion. >> he's got to go, you guys are right, this thing is short $250 billion. we're going the give you this,

this and this today. i'm going to need 217 votes from you guys, and let me tell you, if i don't get them, i'm going to send something over there if you want me to talk with steny hoyer? do you want me dealing with steny hoyer or do you want me dealing with you? >> they have done an extraordinary job, they have. and so i am not completely trashing them here. buchanan's pumping his fist. i understand that the, but as more than one person said over the past couple of weeks, they're two steps through the process, one is having the guts to stare down your opponent, and i say this as a lawyer who sat through a lot of mediations and sat through a lot of negotiations, the first thing is that you have to stare down your opponent, and when you opponent

blinks, as the president has, the president's blinked. you're going to win. you can have a victory on the battlefie battlefield, but if you don't convert that to -- if they don't take boehner's bill, then reid's bill comes up. what happens? >> what actually occurred yesterday where eric cantor got up and said you have two options, you can pass this bill or be forced to vote on harry reid's bill. they played a video segment from the movie "the town." allan west said i'm going to drive this car, they're trying to motivate this caucus. and west supports the bill but my point is this -- >> what part of "the town" they did play? it's a great movie.

>> i think they played the part where ben affleck has to go and punch the guy in the face. >> in the republican caucus, they're playing "the town" the democratic caucus are asking what would david wu do? >> i was trying to think what the equivalent movie would be for the dramatic caucus. we speak about this in very existential terms. people's livelihoods are in -- >> this is a valid point because we don't actually talk about the people who are affected by the debate, the services that will be cut off, the actual salaries of the people who work on the federal payroll who will not have money. >> but also, though, if you want to know what's going to affect americans the most is the fact that if it's downgraded, if

treasuries collapse, interest rates go up and you want to impact americans, in a way that will be much worse than even social security check stopping and medicare services stopping and my mom is on medicare and d depends on it a great deal. you raise interest rates, car loans, all these variable loans, everything goes up. and if interest rates go up at this point in our economy, we're looking at 1979. >> you have a $14 trillion debt, 42% of our budget is servicing the national debt. >> this will take it up to $40 billion. boehner needs to get something that appeals to the republican

conservatives. >> i don't think club for growth is going to sign. >> club for growth is opposed to the thing. >> club for growth and kato is saying it's doubled. >> the key to the question is, not to be responsible for this default and not to be perceived. >> the real budgaeeal budgetary. it's almost impossible to add on more to the cuts in the first two years simply because that's not the way budgeting works. he h they have been promising to make cuts immediately, the problem is you can't find chose cuts. >> willie geist, how much worse would it actually have been if two years ago "way too earlier" had not come on air and i tell them thank god we don't have do

answer that question. >> i have shepherded the nation through a lot of our problems. joe, with due respect to last 15 minutes of this program, aren't we having kind of a mute conversation, i've boehner goes back now and makes it more acceptable to the tea partiers, isn't it going to be more dead on arrival in the senate and if you even got that far, the president has said he would veto it. i just don't see where the deal is in there. i don't know if anybody else. >> the harry reid and mitch mcconnell have one goal, and that is to pass the debt ceiling bill. and if all of these gentlemen thought they could pass a clean debt ceiling bill with no cuts, they would do it in a second. there's a lot of talk about no grown-ups in the room, i disagree with those gentlemen on many issues, but they understand

right now when the president checked out of this process, they are the only game in town and they feel the weight on their shoulders. >> the tea party better not bush boehner. >> the tea party yesterday called in a lot of republicans, conservative republicans and moderate republicans and there are some moderate republicans left in the senate and he was just talking to them saying, guys. >> if they don't give boehner something of what he wants or part of it, they could wind up with nothing. also we are exactly one year away from the 2012 olympic games in london. peter alexander is in london right now and we're going to talk to him about what it will be like to celebrate "way too early"'s birthday. it's going to be a beautiful day today in areas of the great lakes and also in areas of new

england. temperatures are going to be enjoyable. this is one of the nice forecasts we have had. new york city, philly and d.c., typical summer weather and low humidity. one thing i am watching, we have an interesting little development down in the tropics, we could be watching possibly a tropical depression, maybe tropical storm don forming. this timing looks to be friday, somewhere near texas, the question is how much will it develop, we don't want it to be too strong, but we would love to get some rain in texas, that's where the horrible drought is. so a tropical storm would be appreciated. 103 today in dallas, no end in sight for you. you're watching "morning joe," brewed by starbucks.

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i said if you don't want to show the plan -- >> we have seen a lot of leg on what we were proposing. >> where? >> from the podium, right here. and from the, you know, the roosevelt room. you can -- certainly the speaker of the house or these people can address what their last offer was. >> hey, welcome back to "morning joe," 21 past the hour, joining us now the man who asked that

question. nbc news chief white house correspondent and political director and host of the daily rundown, chuck todd, good morning. >> on the hill we have been talking about our conversation with democrats, you talked to republicans, their great frustration is sort of echoed in your question. their great frustration is and they know that that number of days, it's been 318 days or 607 days, they can tell you to the day since democrats have presented their own budget. what's the president's plan? what's the democrat's plan? why is everybody blaming us? and that was in part your question. what's your plan? >> and their frustration is twofold, on one hand they showed their cards on ryan. they're frustrated by it. they know the president is willing to do something on entitlement. so they're saying he ought to take some grief too. look, nobody has purity here, or sort of the politics as to why. but at this point, you do wonder, it's like just throw it

out there. what is it that boehner, you said apparently after boehner walked, they said, no, no, no. come back. >> right after they added 400. >> come back, let's clarify that, is that in fact what happened? did boehner agree to 8$800 billion and they added $400 billion? that's a frustration too because you don't know who's telling the truth. >> that's carney's point, well we have all these papers, they can open -- at this point just show it and they'll say we have this trust with boehner and vice versa, it will blow him up. that's their argument, it could blow him up. it will show that he and cantor were basically agreeing to this idea that they would be a target amount of revenues to the government. >> $800 billion. >> coming out of tax reform which we know would make grover and company crazy, at the same time, if the president did what

he did and showed his cards on medicare and social, we know exactly what would happen with some groups on the left, they would go nuts and see it and to actually see it and carve it up, paul krugman and company would just annihilate him. they're still beating him up anyway because they're hinting at it. why are republicans pushing at this? just put it all out there, everybody wants to just -- >> especially if you're going to ask the american people to call congress. it's stunning to me in this critical debate where america's economy is teetering on the brink of a downgrade, higher interest rates, major economic turmoil, we have no idea what the four or five or six men in the room are talking about. there is no transparency, chuck, that is stunning, isn't it? >> both of them, when candidate obama, we're going to put

cameras, cspan cameras, and what was the mantra of republicans when they were running, no, no, no more transparency, you're going to see everything. and the last six weeks -- >> nothing. >> we have no idea who is offering what? it's staggering. >> that's why when they talked about the big deal, when he put it out there, the democrats in the senate and the house would have gone bananas. >> karn acarney admitted it yesterday. >> but speaking of realism, my senior advisors tell me i ought to veto the debt ceiling if they roll it down here. are they serious that obama may very well veto a debt bill that comes out of the congress of the united states? or is that a big bluff? >> well, we have got some wiggle room, it's the second most o and

b statement, the first is that he will veto it. so there is wiggle room to it. >> that is specific to the boehner plan as it stands now. >> the boehner plan as it stands now is -- >> it's going to change. whatever gets to his desk he will sign. >> he's going to sign it. >> whatever goes to his desk, though. the question is what's going to get to his desk. i think the most likely outcome is you're going to see a 10, 20 or 30-day extension. look, boehner doesn't have the votes, he doesn't have the votes when they thought it was 1.2. >> are they going to take a vote tomorrow? they're supposed to take a vote tomorrow. >> the best thing to happen to him yesterday was the cbo, boehner. he was looking for a reason to delay and stall. because he didn't have the votes, at least the cbo bought him a day to try to find him

more votes, but the fact is that democrats are disciplined here. you know there's about five to eight that always vote with boehner. he's only got three or four of them. they only have three to four at best. and some of those are -- this could be at this point, i'm guessing the inner staff is going, i told you so. you need all -- >> but the other discipline here is from the senate democrats who have held their guns and are waiting to be the last legislation introduced. their whole thinking is if we can be the last bill there that's not defeated. >> now go get it past. they should go and get it passed. >> the earliest thigh can introduce is friday. >> they made a mistake. i think the first one to pass would have the advantage. >> you know, there's always this belief that among most americans, that things are going to work out. that somebody up there know what is they're doing. >> they'll figure it out.

>> they'll figure it out, well, they wouldn't be doing this if they didn't know -- i think we can state pretty unequivocally, chuck from his reporting, sam are his reporting, pat, us, from going to the hill, and talking, there is fear on the hill. fear and loathing. they don't know if they're going to be able to avert this crisis or not. >> you know, first of all, i think the first time i noticed it was the stress that senator john thune as he was sitting in his chair and was holding his chair and broke part of it off. either that or he's just really strong. but everybody -- >> he's a man's man. >> wanted to talk -- >> did you see that -- >> but it's a big piece of wood and he just broke it. >> but anyway, what's your point? >> and then justi put it on the

table. >> what's your point? >> this broke in the "new york times" today. people want this over, it's something we haven't seen before on this specifically and also a renewed or a first time ever, at least i have seen larger national awareness about the debt. having said that -- >> they're playing the town as an inspirational flick. >> you've got a problem. >> brain twister for you, is there anything the president should do at this point to get the upper hand at this point or is this over? the way you two talk, the way all of you talk, it's over. >> chuck, i think at this late date, all the president can do is wait for legislation to come. i still don't understand the speech. was the speech trying to frame the debate but basically trying to say he's out of it. democrats say he's out of it. >> he it's out of the debate, wade and schumer, they're at the white house right now, they're the proxy for the white house,

they're carrying and much of the numbers they're playing with are the cuts that were negotiabled already. they're using the same. the accounting's been done seven or eight times. >> if boehner's bill goes down the tubes, all of a sudden i think the democrats have got the upper hand. they put reid up there. >> and "the wall street journal" -- mitch mcconnell is the key here. >> right now he's making the decision not to let reid get this through. let's say reid wanted to get this through, mcconnell is telling his guys no. but will he let them go? will he basically let them go and that will be the sign where mcconnell is saying, let's just rally around -- >> he could do it, if boehner doesn't get it out of the house. mcconnell will say vote for closure but sign the bill. >> the picture of mitch mcconnell smiling right there, mitch mcconnell is very worried

obviously about what's going on. but that man right there, and this is something that's hard for president who get elected the way president obama got elected, it's hard to understand how inside players like mitch mcconnell in debates like this become the most powerful man in washington, d.c., but at this stage, he is. he's juggling with boehner. >> boehner needs another pool of votes and right now he doesn't have the democrats to help get this through. >> so mccon dmkoconnell is waits balancing boehner and reid. >> they're very close. >> the only difference is in terms of the second -- enforcement mechanism on the second round of cuts. >> the tea party is trying to run up the score, we got a victory. >> they don't know how to win. >> while we're in a debt ceiling firing up, in a month and a half, we have the fight all over

again. the tea party could score these cuts right now and then go back in the debate and score more cuts later. >> by the way, i'm told there are moderate house republicans still, so we have one of them. >> all right. >> there you go, all right. >> up next a check on business before the bell with simon hobbs. plus mcdonald's is putting their happy meals on a diet. finally, because they were just -- boxes of poison for children. seriously. i love that my daughter's part fish.

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back to "morning joe." 36 post the hour, i regret not coming in at 6:00 on the east coast with this story. >> we're glad that you didn't, actually. because sam stein and i had taken the big mac happy meals that we -- the big mac value meals that we bought last night, we supersized them and heated them up at 6:00 a.m. that's breakfast. >> that's why happy meals are going on a diet.

in an effort to appease parents and nutrition experts alarmed by the number of obese american kids. mcdonald's now says they'll cut the french fry portion in half, add fruit and lower the calories to less than 600. michelle obama says in a statement, quote, andly agree to this, mcdonald's is taking continued progress, this is only progress and these are positive steps toward the goal of solving the problem of childhood obesity. the new happy meals are expected to roll out in september. it's just progress. >> really, because mika quoted michelle obama, i'll quote don mclean. i can't remember if i cried when i read about his widowed bride, but something touched me deep inside the day the music died. when you replace tasty mcdonald's french fries with

apple slices, well, i'm afraid that america's no longer a great nation, willie geist? >> wait. >> can willie talk now. >> before you spout stupidity, and ridiculous verbal vomit, i will tell you that these foods are addictive and i know it sounds crazy. >> that's why we like them. willie geist in new york. the mcdonald's test. >> here's why there's good news, the smaller portion in this happy meal, it's so small you can finish it on your way back around through the drive through when you go for your second course, then you get the big mac, the double cheese, the quarter pounder or what have you. >> they're like tasty crystal burlington

burgers where you can have 12 of them. >> it's just like simon hobbs told us yesterday, if we lose our credit rating -- >> take the apple slices to that big round can that's in all these places and just drop them in there. >> there's going to be a lot of thrown away apple slices. >> i had a double whopper at the airport in central missouri and it was the best meal i think i have had in a long time. it was unbelievable. you got the whopper, she bought something and said this is lousy, that looks terrific. and it was good for you. >> it's a heart attack on the plate. >> simon, we of course are deeply saddened by what's happening at mcdonald's but tell us what's happening on wall

street today, are people's fearing growing about a default? >> there's a huge schizophrenia down here. you were mentioning food stuffs, we have got duncan brown's ipo is going to float today well above the issue price. amazon set a record. but you have the oh, my god does the right ring of the republican party know what it's doing? are we going to go back to what happened in 2008 when they failed to initiate past the top bill. the market has a real schizophrenia at the moment. money managers are moving into cash, those that usually invest in government bonds for fear of mass redemptions, you've got corporate treasuries that are moving into cash for fear of what might happen on capitol hill. you have a market that's now falling iing 1.75%.

you have gold at a record high, that may not totally be due to the debt however, because behind all that there's a real concern that growth may be slowing and we just had the durable goods order come out and that is also not good. you have u.p.s. warning about growth yesterday and what a lot of people are not talking about, when you mention spending cuts, you mean austerity at a time when many economists say you should be stimulating the economy. the debate on capitol hill is how hard and how fast do you cut in an economy that's still clearly very sick, guys. >> that's of course the big question, it is a real -- it's a real challenge. thank you, simon, but you look at republicans wanting to front load as you said, these cuts in the next year or two, doing that at the same time, that the economy is slowing down, is what pat and i would say, it's the same thing as raising taxes when

the economy is slowing down. >> we were just talking about that, england's growth rate is what, pat? >> .2%. where is the job stimulus package, whether it's the reagan package, or an obama stimulus, where is it? all of this is -- you know, it does not stimulate the economy. neither of them. >> coming up next, at exactly one year until the 2012 olympics opening ceremony, peter alexander is in london with ow -- as much as i can about a company before i invest in it. that's why i like fidelity.

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did you see this? a crazy night in atlanta. a squeeze play by the pirates, letting them take the lead and put this one away, but great call from the bench as they sniffed out the squeeze and got the runner at third. we go to extra innings, braves with the potential winning run on third base. but julio lugo rounds out us. rookie freddie freeman makes a diving catch and some young pirate fans want this thing to end, they have had enough. bottom of the 18th, a base hit will win it for atlanta. but ronnie cedeno makes the play. it's the 19th inning now, it's about 1:45 in the morning. and here is the play that everybody's talking about this morning, julio lugo tries to score on a grounder to third.

he appears to be out by five feet. not appears to be, he is out by five feet. but jerry meals calls him safe. >> how? >> what are you looking at, jerry. take another look. the pirate's catcher cannot believe his eyes. they call him save, they win, 4-3. still hasn't touched the base, he's been tagged out. the braves win 4-3 in 19 innings, the game lasted six hours, 35 minutes ending just before 2:00 in the morning, clearly that umpire was thinking about what time the room service menu closed, had to get back to the he tolotel. the longest game either team has ever played. the pirates are now one game out in the central, and they've got the wild card.

>> aaron has been drews is going to be talking about the juggernaut. now a look ahead at the 2012 olympics now exactly one year away. somewhere in america, there's a doctor who can peer into the future. there's a nurse who can access in an instant every patient's past. and because the whole hospital's working together, there's a family who can breathe easy, right now. somewhere in america, we've already answered some of the nation's toughest healthcare questions. and the over 60,000 people of siemens are ready to do it again. siemens. answers. handle more than 165 billion letters and packages a year. that's about 34 million pounds of mail every day.

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welcome back to "morning joe," we're looking at london right now, i'm a little shocked. the olympic committee making a gutsy decision, watching on the third edition of way too early. i'm shocked by this timing. it's obviously a huge mistake and a big conflict that they're going to have to reckon with. >> seriously, willie, nobody's going to be watching this. >> they're going to be watching "way too early" on bbr. here's a look at how london's preparing to coast the 2012 games. >> good morning to you, we will be posing that way too early question, a short time from now, with a hat tip, london is deft

calling the olympics, the "countdown" officially underway. as they like to say, they are bang on schedule right now and london's mayor likes to say they are ready for the greatest party on earth. surrounded by some of the world's most iconic landmarks, from big ben to buckingham palace, london's historic skyline is getting an olympic makeover, preparing once again to serve on the international stage. >> once there's a big competition or a big sporting event, we celebrate in the right way. >> among the heavily anticipated venues woven into the british capital, the royal horse guards parade, the very site where billions watched william and kate ride home this spring, today it's being prepped for a test event. more than 4,000 tons of sand -- game's crown jewel, right on the

queen's door step. >> what kind of a challenge is this for you? >> putting it on in the white house lawn, about the same challenge. >> reporter: the upcoming games will make london the only city in the world to ever host an olympics three times, the first was 1908 and again 40 years later. this go around athletes will compete with 34 olympic screen yous, some like the laws of wimbeldon, home of tennis, others at the state act cat tick center are -- the torch will be lit in the new olympic stadium. what does it mean to a british athlete to perform in her first olympics on her home soil? >> it's a big thing for me, especially when i got that gb vest on, to have the great

british supporters cheering. i'm excited. >> reporter: less than an hour away, the british invasion has already begun. as you look at this course and think a year out, what fires you up? >> i love this course, it's big white water and americans historically were good at big white water. >> so to test the waters and put one of the least appreciated sports in for ourselves, brett announced a -- your best advice is what? >> the less you do, the better we are. >> the less i do, the better we are? >> yes. >> reporter: i appreciate that vote of confidence. >> the rel celebrations are still to come. >> we'll do it in the way th

that -- it's going to great for the world to watch, it's going to be great for children to watch. it's going to be exciting. >> for the record, we finish that white water course, it's apparently harder if you go through the gates, you're supposed to go around them. >> coming up next, what did we learn today?

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